Regret earnestly one’s action and inaction and ask sincerely for forgiveness from an invisible magic man we invented convincing ourselves his magic makes everything OK.
Or
Or
We could take responsibility for our own actions, sincerely apologise and make amends the best way we can and accept our own faults and failings.
Is this an either / or question?
ReplyDeleteCan't we do both?
Do you understand the concept of a "false dichotomy"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
I cant do both because I know there is no invisible magic man.
ReplyDeleteThen, with respect to you, there is no choice to make since, as you point out, you only have one option.
ReplyDeleteNow, ignoring your rather obvious and puerile attempts at provocation, why can't someoen who has both options available to them do both?
If they believe in invisible magic men I'm sure some people could do both but I suspect that many are quite happy with option one and the feeling that they are forgiven a bit like the adage;
ReplyDelete"I once prayed to God for a bike, but quickly found out he didn't work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"
BTW I see nothing wrong with being puerile or provocative here - It always seems to get my intended response.
"but I suspect that many are quite happy with option one"
ReplyDeleteOn what evidence do you base that suspicion?
"a bit like the adage;
"I once prayed to God for a bike, but quickly found out he didn't work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness""
It's a joke. I remember hearing Emo Phillips tell it twenty years ago. I don't know of anyone who actually lives their life like that. Do you?
Even if some people can only follow option 2 (because they have no faith in a God from whom they can ask forgiveness)and some people choose to only follow option 1 your question still presents a false dichotomy since it is possible to do both.
ReplyDeleteThe options presented are not mutually exclusive and are not an exhaustive list of all the options available.
"On what evidence do you base that suspicion?"
ReplyDeleteOn 'men of god' who abused children but have never sought to apologise or make amends.
"On 'men of god' who abused children but have never sought to apologise or make amends. "
ReplyDeleteAre they the "many" that you referred to previously?
I'll correct your earlier statement for you then:
"I'm sure some people could do both but I suspect that paedophiles are quite happy with option one"
There you go.
Still doesn't change your question being a false dichotomy though.
Actually, where is the evidence that these paedophiles sincerely regret their actions and have therefore sincerely asked for forgiveness from God?
ReplyDelete"Are they the "many" that you referred to previously?"
ReplyDeleteHow many does it take to be too many for you?
"Actually, where is the evidence that these paedophiles sincerely regret their actions and have therefore sincerely asked for forgiveness from God?"
Sort of the point - they probably do.
Is there any evidence that they take responsibility for their own actions, sincerely apologise and make amends the best they can before actually getting caught?
"How many does it take to be too many for you?"
ReplyDeleteYou said that you suspect that "many" people believe that they merely have to seek God's forgiveness for their misdeeds and not engage in any reparations to their victims.
When asked for the basis of this suspicion you cited paedophile priests.
Well in the context of those globally who might believe that they should ask God for forgiveness for their transgressions who probably number in their hundreds of millions then the number of paedophile priests probably number in the thousands.
Or about 0.001%.
Is that really "many" in this context?
"Sort of the point - they probably do."
On what basis do you say that they probably do?
I asked for evidence.
You offer conjecture.
Your blog entry remains a false dichotomy.
How many is too many?
ReplyDeleteDo you think only priests ask for forgiveness without trying to make amends? Would such a thing only apply to them? With billions of religious believers, if only 0.001% did it, it would still be many.
"Do you think only priests ask for forgiveness without trying to make amends?"
ReplyDeleteThey were the only example that you were able to give in support of your suspicion that "many" only ask God for forgiveness but do nothing to make amends to the victims of their actions.
Even then you have not demonstrated that in general paedophile priests "regret earnestly" their actions and "ask sincerely for forgiveness" from God.
"With billions of religious believers, if only 0.001% did it, it would still be many."
Not in the context of the total number of believers.
On the contrary, it would be relatively few (one in one hundred thousand).
Your question is still a false dichotomy, by the way.
Third time asking - How many is OK and how many it too many?
ReplyDeleteOne in a hundred thousand when there are apparently billions are too many for me.
Why are you trying to change the subject away from your basis for your suspicion that "many" people "Regret earnestly one’s action and inaction and ask sincerely for forgiveness from an invisible magic man we invented convincing ourselves his magic makes everything OK" but don't "take responsibility for our own actions, sincerely apologise and make amends the best way we can and accept our own faults and failings"?
ReplyDeleteSince you introduced the concept of "many" to this conversation I think that the responsibility lies with you to define what you meant by "many" in the context of those worldwide for whom the concept asking for foregiveness from deity was a possibility.
You still haven't made any defence of the accusation that your question is a false dichotomy.
I presume that you accept the allegation in that case.
I'm not changing the subject - you have already done that from the post.
ReplyDelete'Many' means more than I care for. So for the fourth time of asking, in my example how many child abusers is OK for you and how many is too many?
So on the basis that "more than you care for" only confess to God rather than confess to God and make amends to their victims you suspect that "many" people only confess to God rather than confess to God and make amends to their victims.
ReplyDeleteA rather strange definition of "many" in the context of all those who might confess their sins to God since "more than I care for" could be as few as one.
And your question is still a false dichotomy.
Not a strange definition at all. With billions of believers (this isn't confined to Christianity), any believer who by the norms of morality has been immoral must be included.
ReplyDeleteWas the actions of the 9/11, 7/7 terrorists immoral? Did they pray to their deity for forgiveness for the wrongs of their life? That is option 1. Did they try to make amends for it - option 2?
Which is the right thing to do?
"Was the actions of the 9/11, 7/7 terrorists immoral? Did they pray to their deity for forgiveness for the wrongs of their life? That is option 1."
ReplyDeleteI don't know, neither do you.
"Did they try to make amends for it - option 2?"
I don't know how many of their past trangressions against others they made redress for, neither do you.
"Which is the right thing to do? "
I don't know why you continue to push this falsr dichotomy when even those who have the option of asking for God's foregiveness can (and may well be expected to by their religious faith) make amends to the victims of their actions as well.
And you still haven't explained why you suspect that "many" of those in a position to ask for God's foregiveness do not also seek to make amends with those that they have hurt (other than to refer to a weird definiton of "many" that equals about 0.001% of those concerned).
I do know that the actions of the 9/11, 7/7 terrorists were immoral. Perhaps you don't know judging them by your moral standards, but by mine and any other rational person I know the murder of thousands of innocent people is very much an immoral act.
ReplyDeleteI think It says something very profound about you if you feel you are not in a position to have an opinion about such callous actions.
BTW there is no false dichotomy for non-believes. If they have any regrets they have no choice in the matter at all and will always choose the second option.
As you have pointed out and I agreed, some believers may do both. This is aimed at those that haven't.
"I do know that the actions of the 9/11, 7/7 terrorists were immoral."
ReplyDeleteI would agree with you there.
"Perhaps you don't know judging them by your moral standards, but by mine and any other rational person I know the murder of thousands of innocent people is very much an immoral act.
I think It says something very profound about you if you feel you are not in a position to have an opinion about such callous actions."
Oh dear!
I was answering the second part of the sentence that I quoted. Clearly their actions in flying aeroplanes into the World Trade Centre Towers were immoral. What neither of us know is whether they prayed "to their deity for forgiveness for the wrongs of their life".
"BTW there is no false dichotomy for non-believes."
Yes there is (whatever "non-believes" are).
You appear to present a choice of two options when in fact one option was not a possibility for them.
So it is still a false dichotomy no matter whom we are talking about.
It would only NOT be a false dichotomy for those people who only had the choice of one or the other AND no other options (see the Wikipedia link I gave before).
"As you have pointed out and I agreed, some believers may do both. This is aimed at those that haven't."
Really?
Where do you point out that this is intended at such a limited audience?
"I would agree with you there."
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean you agree with me? Your last post clearly stated you didn't know and neither did I.
Of course they prayed for forgiveness - it is a standard part is Islam.
"Where do you point out that this is intended at such a limited audience? "
I must again humbly apologise for over estimating my audiences intelligence.
"What do you mean you agree with me? Your last post clearly stated you didn't know and neither did I."
ReplyDeleteI should have made it clear at the time that this was in reference to "Did they pray to their deity for forgiveness for the wrongs of their life?"
and not
"Was the actions of the 9/11, 7/7 terrorists immoral?"
However, I did clarify this in my last response: "I was answering the second part of the sentence that I quoted. Clearly their actions in flying aeroplanes into the World Trade Centre Towers were immoral. What neither of us know is whether they prayed "to their deity for forgiveness for the wrongs of their life"."
so I don't know why you are continuing to feign confusion.
"Of course they prayed for forgiveness - it is a standard part is Islam."
It may well be, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they did it.
Jesus preached that Christians should make their peace with those that they have wronged but you are suggesting that Christians do not do this.
"I must again humbly apologise for over estimating my audiences intelligence."
You should be apologising for your dishonesty in trying to move the goalposts (again).
No goal post have been moved. I know in my own mind what the right thing to do is.
ReplyDelete